Baseball Toaster Mike's Baseball Rants
Help
This is my site with my opinions, but I hope that, like Irish Spring, you like it, too.
Frozen Toast
Search
Google Search
Web
Toaster
Mike's Baseball Rants
Archives

2009
01 

2008
10  09  07 
06  05  04  03 

2007
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2006
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2005
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2004
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2003
12  11  10  09  08  07 
06  05  04  03  02  01 

2002
12  11  10  09  08  07 
Links to MBBR
Retaining Watermark
2006-03-14 21:59
by Mike Carminati

Given my newfound data on player retention, I thought it might be interesting to look at whether retaining young talent leads to winning teams. I looked at how long each franchise does on average in retaining the players that first reach the majors with them.

Below are the results sorted from highest to lowest. Keep in mind that the newer expansion teams will have lower numbers given that they haven't had time to build up a history:
Franchise Avg Team Yrs Avg Total Yrs % FirstLastPCT
Houston Astros 3.22 5.61 57.49%19622005.500
New York Yankees 3.09 5.79 53.43%19012005.567
San Francisco Giants 3.07 5.48 56.06%18832005.540
Los Angeles Dodgers 3.05 5.67 53.89%18842005.524
Milwaukee Brewers 3.03 5.09 59.57%18842005.472
Detroit Tigers 3.00 5.08 59.07%19012005.505
Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim 3.00 5.61 53.51%19612005.490
Toronto Blue Jays 2.99 5.78 51.70%19772005.494
Kansas City Royals 2.95 5.09 57.98%19692005.491
Minnesota Twins 2.95 4.62 63.69%19012005.480
Boston Red Sox 2.94 5.02 58.49%19012005.515
Cleveland Indians 2.86 5.30 53.95%19012005.511
New York Mets 2.86 5.99 47.65%19622005.474
Pittsburgh Pirates 2.84 5.16 55.06%18822005.508
Texas Rangers 2.83 5.43 52.19%19612005.467
Chicago White Sox 2.82 4.60 61.28%19012005.506
Atlanta Braves 2.77 4.83 57.36%18762005.499
San Diego Padres 2.72 5.15 52.81%19692005.459
Seattle Mariners 2.70 5.11 52.89%19772005.470
St. Louis Cardinals 2.67 5.07 52.71%18822005.517
Cincinnati Reds 2.67 5.13 51.96%18762005.506
Chicago Cubs 2.66 5.18 51.46%18762005.514
Oakland Athletics 2.59 4.61 56.17%19012005.485
Baltimore Orioles 2.54 4.57 55.55%18822005.482
Washington Nationals 2.49 4.89 51.03%18722005.469
Florida Marlins 2.47 4.36 56.59%19932005.472
Tampa Bay Devil Rays 2.47 3.18 77.49%19982005.401
Philadelphia Phillies 2.45 4.37 56.18%18832005.468
Colorado Rockies 2.29 3.45 66.55%19932005.465
Arizona Diamondbacks 2.07 3.16 65.57%19982005.503

A cursory look at the list seems to indicate that winning teams retain young players longer. However, when I ran the numbers I found that the correlation isn't very strong at all (coefficient of 0.4546). Actually, the total years that the players these teams developed (though didn't necessarily spend with the given team) correlate to their winning percentage slightly better (0.5056).

OK, maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges. What if we divvied the up the team stats by decade? The teams that retained young talent best did have some very good results. The Yankees of the '30s, the Reds of the Sixties and Seventies, the Seventies Royals, the O's in the '60s, etc.:

FranchiseDecade Avg Team Yrs Avg Total Yrs % PCT
New York Yankees1930s 5.20 8.05 64.55%.636
Cincinnati Reds1960s 4.78 9.33 51.19%.537
Kansas City Royals1970s 4.53 7.29 62.20%.528
Baltimore Orioles1960s 4.51 7.75 58.23%.566
Cincinnati Reds1970s 4.44 8.26 53.73%.592
Pittsburgh Pirates1960s 4.37 8.12 53.79%.529
Milwaukee Brewers1970s 4.31 6.40 67.27%.458
Boston Red Sox1980s 4.19 6.60 63.43%.525
San Francisco Giants1960s 4.18 7.92 52.72%.562
St. Louis Cardinals1940s 4.17 6.36 65.60%.623
Atlanta Braves1970s 4.16 5.88 70.75%.451
Atlanta Braves1980s 4.14 7.58 54.63%.457
Baltimore Orioles1970s 4.12 7.86 52.37%.590
Minnesota Twins1990s 4.04 6.33 63.88%.463
San Francisco Giants1970s 4.04 7.49 53.88%.493
Los Angeles Dodgers1970s 4.00 9.31 42.96%.565
Detroit Tigers1960s 4.00 6.02 66.50%.547
San Francisco Giants1950s 4.00 7.47 53.53%.533
New York Yankees1940s 3.95 6.32 62.50%.604
Washington Nationals1970s 3.94 7.26 54.27%.465
Los Angeles Dodgers1950s 3.93 6.70 58.64%.592
Los Angeles Dodgers1960s 3.92 7.72 50.74%.546
Seattle Mariners1980s 3.89 7.35 52.98%.430
Pittsburgh Pirates1930s 3.88 5.83 66.43%.531
Atlanta Braves1960s 3.87 7.45 51.90%.531
Boston Red Sox1960s 3.86 7.15 54.03%.475
Toronto Blue Jays1970s 3.85 4.85 79.38%.343

So how well does retaining one's prospects correlate to winning when the data are divided up by decade? Even worse than the overall stats (coefficient of 0.1598).

Well, my next thought was that maybe we need to limit some of the data. The data from the current data is largely meaningless given that it'll be incomplete for another decade or so. Also, the nineteenth-century data are much lower given the volatility of the times. I limited the data to 1900-2000 only. The results were…(drum roll please)…not a whole lot better (0.3198).

So what does it all mean? I'm going back to the drawing board, but by the looks of things teams that held onto their young players longer did not necessarily lead to on-field success. Given that teams have tried to sign up their youngsters a la the Indians in the Nineties, this seems counterintuitive. Isn't the whole idea behind restricting free agency to players with six years of major-league experience and arbitration to those with three based on this theory?

Maybe it's not retaining the most youngsters for the longest that helps teams win. Maybe it's retaining the best and being able to evaluate that correctly that helps teams win.

Comments
2006-03-15 05:24:15
1.   Jason Wojciechowski
I think your last paragraph is the key. The Indians and A's lock up their good talent (Jim Thome, Eric Chavez) and let their mediocre talent head off elsewhere (Eric Byrnes). Bad teams with bad farm systems might retain their young players, but it could be out of some mix of (a) not being able to come up with anyone better from within; (b) not being able to sign players from without; (c) just not realizing that their bad players are bad.
2006-03-15 06:39:56
2.   studes
I don't think there's any relationship here. The case for six years before free agency is really economic, not related to the quality of the player. If a team holds onto a bad player, what good does that do?

It's interesting to note the average career length by team. Man, those Phillies stink at developing talent, don't they?

2006-03-15 15:32:24
3.   das411
Not just the failures at developing talent (how many home-grown HOFers have the Phillies produced? Schmidt, Ashburn, Robin Roberts....and then it gets very quiet...) but their ridiculously low all-time winning percentage too! Gotta love being a Phillies fan!
2006-03-15 20:26:10
4.   Mike Carminati
And don't forget Big Ed Delahanty and Chuck Klein.

And there are the ones that got away.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.